Understand what hustle means in your business and what you need to really focus on for a thriving business. Pamela hits us hard with the brutal truth about why we hate selling and why Facebook ads don’t work.
Yes, we can use social media—organic and or paid ads to get people to buy our things. And we can do it in a way that isn’t spammy or feels like a hustle.
Watch this episode on: YouTube.
Listen on: Spotify, Apple Podcasts.
Pamela Dale’s website: https://theclientcoach.com
Pamela Dale’s LinkedIn profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pamelajoandale/
Summary
What we cover:
- Pamela explains what good advertising means.
- Why advertising feels icky.
- Understand why you have a duty to sell, not spam!
- When and why ChatGPT is useless in writing ads for you.
- The secret to running profitable ads.
- Why the dude bro’s $15K course won’t work for women.
- Heads up: Facebook ads and Google Ads aren’t the money printers they used to be!
Transcript:
Okay, welcome everyone. In this episode, I’ve got Pamela with me, and Pamela’s going to tell us about how to grow and attract an audience in a very, I guess, meaningful way—without any sort of hustle or drastic energy and that sort of thing.
So hi, welcome Pamela!
Pamela:
Thanks Lou, it’s great to be here. What a great topic for the times that we live in, right?
Lou:
Absolutely. So why don’t you—why don’t we begin with you telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do for people?
Pamela’s backstory
Pamela:
That’s a great question. We’re right in the middle of a transition to actually teaching people to do what I have done, and that is build a multiple six-figure service-based business.
And when I built a service-based business, I never ran ads for that business. I’ve never run ads. I’ve barely done any social media. And it’s just been through connecting with people.
And I’d love to tell you that that was, you know, the whole story, but it really is never the whole story, is it? When it comes to getting clients, it is a game. And it’s a game of: how much do I really like myself? Like what I’m doing? Like the world? Like money? Like all of these things—because they’re so wrapped up in the identity of a service-based business owner.
And until that switches from employee over to business owner, it’s almost impossible to build a business. Well, I wish somebody would have told me that instead of spending $150,000 on courses from everybody that thought, you know, “Make $10,000 in two days” kind of stuff.
‘What’s wrong with me?’
I—I bought into it too, because I never heard anyone or saw anyone crying, or upset, or frustrated, or failing like crazy in public. Nobody does that. And I thought something was wrong with me. So it took a lot of work and a lot of money to find the answers.
And I really was not prepared to build a business. I was still bringing my patriarchal, industrial-age, all-about-education, being the smartest one in the room—when it has nothing to do with owning a business, right?
So it took me a while to break through that. And then once I did, it was like—oh! It’s like magic. And I remember the word, and I remember people saying, “It’s like magic.” And I’d go, “It is… but it really isn’t.”
It’s that ease that you were talking about—that energy. Once I really understood who I was, and what I wanted to do, and why I’m doing it—when it does get really hard—it really just starts to happen. And it’s a beautiful thing. It’s a beautiful thing.
Lou:
Yeah. Oh wow. Absolutely, yeah. And it’s not just—I wouldn’t call it magic. I would say this is us being human. This is who we are. There’s—there’s no facades. There’s no trickery.
Do Facebook ads not work because people don’t like them?
I mean, you know, a lot of people feel like, “Oh ads… they’re so ugly and annoying and I hate seeing them on my feed. Does that mean that if I want to use ads I have to do it like that too?”
Pamela:
It is such a great point, what you said about magic. That was the only word or vocabulary I had to explain it at the time—of what was really happening—because I’d never been there before.
So it was like: one day, struggle; next day, not. And I was like, “What is this?” And it’s exactly what you said: just energy, and moving into me, and selling, and talking, and interacting, and putting out there the real me. And that’s what attracted people.
But until then, I didn’t know a word for it. So I used the word “magic.”
Lou:
Yeah, absolutely. That’s so amazing. So, um, can you describe a little bit more what you mean by hustling?
What’s hustling and why we don’t have to do it
Pamela:
Well, every movie, every TV show—even Disney, all the Christmas movies—if you look at the people who have made money or are the salespeople in those situations, all of them are the villains. All of them are hustling people, aren’t they? They’re trying to get a buck out of the guy’s pocket or gal’s pocket.
And then let’s put female owners and business people and rich people in there as well—and we don’t relate to it. We don’t want to be that person. But yet, those are the only examples that we’ve seen.
And then in the marketing world, until just recently, that’s what we hear as well. You’ve got to do these, you know—ice baths, get up at 4, five-hour morning routine—and then you don’t work and you don’t work and you don’t work… or you don’t stop, you don’t stop, you don’t stop. And I’m like, well, okay, that makes no sense to me.
Because what I know is Franklin D. Covey built us a planner, but Franklin D. Covey didn’t have to work and think and do the things that you and I, as female business owners, have to do, right? And the way that I need it to be—I can’t do 30-minute slots all day every damn day and carry everything else.
Right? So we see it as that model, so we’re like, “Well, I don’t fit there.” So then we just throw the baby out with the bathwater. But we really do need to work hard—and think hard. We need to be creative. We need to do some things.
And it’s when you get to the—I’m going to use my favorite word—magic, you’re going to realize it’s not about the hard work. But you’re going to need to do that to get there. And it doesn’t mean hours.
Do you know what I’m talking about? I’m talking about the thinking work. I’m talking about: What do you think is true? What do you believe is true? What is it that you have—a pattern, a pathology—that needs to be broken down?
How are you going to get there if you’re not willing to sit with yourself and do the hard work?
I’m not talking about shoveling pig manure like I used to do as a child and throwing bales—like, you know, I’m strong because of it, but it’s a hell of a way to do it. But you build a business, and yes, you’re going to have to do this work. It’s a hell of a way to do it—but you’ll get there. You’ll force yourself to, or you can sit down and you can do the hard work.
So it doesn’t need to be hustle. It actually can be very clear:
You sell, you systematize, and you serve. That’s it.
And everything else in your calendar needs to come off. All of the stuff that we’re doing—all of the things like all the administrative work—we usually put that first.
So it’s very easy to build a business, but if you don’t have sales and you don’t understand how business works, what’s going to happen, Lou, is you’re going to end up in the admin side, and it’s going to feel like all you do is work—when you actually are just working on the wrong things.
Who are you administrating for? What are you administrating? I’ve got 40 funnels I never launched.
Overwork
Right? So we don’t have to hustle at all. But we will. Because here’s—here’s the truth:
Many of us overwork, overeat, over-Netflix, over-[everything]. But I’m going to talk about overworking—because you might be able to notice it easier than overeating, which is something I’ve had to deal with.
But in overwork, my number one question is this: What is it that you are avoiding?
What are you avoiding? Because you do not need to work that hard. And I am calling myself out—and every other woman on this call. Many times, it’s our relationships. It’s our children. It’s our home. It’s our—what? My—we are avoiding something by not slowing down.
Because if we overwork, we don’t have to slow down and face what’s there.
So it’s a lot of that as well. And now, who would have thought that this is what we talk about when it comes to business, right? But I know that’s what’s going on—because there is an easier way.
And you and I both know it. Because if we’re talking to a woman, I know she has a skill set of how to get [ __ ] done.
Lou:
Mhm.
Pamela:
And she’s not doing the same thing with meal prep that she’s doing in her business.
Lou:
Yeah.
Pamela:
Right?
So what’s going on over here? What are we avoiding? What needs to be looked at?
So then… what’s the alternative to overwork, hustle, burnout, or Facebook ads that don’t work?
Lou:
That is wonderful, and I fully agree. We get so trapped in this way of thinking like we have to do things a certain way.
And in your email to me, you mentioned, like, you know—building an audience and reaching people. To some people, that means posting non-stop or putting ads in thousands of people’s faces. If that’s not what we should be doing, can you tell us, like, in a more tangible way, what the alternative looks like?
Pamela:
Having conversations with people.
So I speak to service-based business owners, but it doesn’t matter if you’re a coach, it doesn’t matter what you’re doing—real estate, etc. It’s all in conversations.
We need to get in front of the people, and we need the closest proximity to them. So think of the internet—it’s vast, and there’s a big gap, right? In the trust, in the reach, etc.
Then you think about a social media platform, like Instagram or LinkedIn—still a little bit of distance, but we’re a little bit closer. Then think about introductions, referrals—those are a little bit closer. And then in person is the closest.
Walk into networking meetings in your city—and you can do them online. I sit in Mexico and I’m a Canadian, and I can still get on BNI meetings in every city in Canada virtually, at least twice, before I have to purchase. So I know that I can get close to people and build relationships with people.
We are scared to do that. We’ve got this idea—all of this made up in our head—about what? What? I don’t know what yours is, but we’ve all got a few.
And if we’re going to build a business, we need to go sell. We need to go talk to people.
That’s why all the admin work is happening—because we don’t want to go talk to people.
So the fastest way to grow? Talking to people.
Then what you do is you start running ads—but only after you’ve spoken to enough people that you understand the real problem. So that it can then be heard. And you’ve got enough credibility in what you do that it can reach them and speak to them.
And that’s going to cost you. Right now it’s $6 to $10 a lead for a lead magnet. For a lead magnet?!
Lou:
Wow.
Pamela:
I remember dollar days.
I remember—right? 27 cents a lead? Forget it.
B2B space—in my space right now—because I’m moving over into coaching. So I am building up for a webinar, and I need the leads, right? That’s what we’re looking at.
But I’m still, every day, on LinkedIn talking to people and reaching out to people. Every single day. Reaching freelancers on LinkedIn.
If you’re a freelancer, you get on LinkedIn. It is the most powerful platform for us, because they’re still talking business over there.
A little bit crazier in Instagram DMs—people get a little bit, you know… because they’re getting in the DMs, right? But if you comment and build a relationship, it’s going to be magical. Because even if you spend a couple hours a week, you will be way further ahead.
And if you’ve got a decent offer, you don’t need more than a couple leads a day.
Lou:
Yeah. That’s it.
Pamela:
Right?
Lou:
Yeah. That’s it.
This is what people are missing. Nobody likes to be advertised to, but we all really love it and we feel it when we’re connected with someone.
Like, that feels good. That feels better than having an ad shoved in our face.
Pamela:
You know what? I love ads—because I’m actively looking for something. And the moment I go to a page, I want them to feed me more ads—because I didn’t know that person existed. And then I’m going to go to the website, I’m going to check them out, my husband’s going to check the reviews, and then I’m going to go, “Hey, okay, let me buy one from you and see what my experience is.”
I want ads all day long. Because I’m a consumer. I’m looking to better my life, and better my business, and better my home, and better my family, and better my relationships. Aren’t we always?
But when we are not solid in who we are, Lou, we don’t want anyone coming to us. Because oh my God—we’re abdicating responsibility to that person, and we think that that person should know better than to come near us.
Versus—we know who we are, and what we want, and what we do, and what we don’t do, and what our values are, and what we need. And then we can simply say, “No, thank you.” Just like coffee in a restaurant.
Lou:
Yeah.
Pamela:
But when we’ve got that big of a red flag, as a business owner, that we don’t want ads—that tells me we’ve got a business owner that doesn’t have any goddamn values and understanding of who they are and what they stand for.
Because why would you not, when you walk in a store, want Campbell and Knorr and all the soup brands there? Would you—”Oh no, don’t give me those! Don’t give me those, ’cause I don’t want that in my feed.”
But you walked into the store.
But you’re doing the same on Facebook. Facebook is free. Why would you—
Why are you not mad at the grocery store for giving you Libby’s? But we’re not, are we? Because we feel more in charge there. We know what we’re going in for. We know what we want. And we can slowly walk by the soups and be fine.
But online, we get worked up. Because we’ve got a very toxic relationship with selling.
The toxic relationship with selling
Lou:
Yeah, yeah.
Pamela:
Amen. [laughs] Mic drop—that’s what’s going on there. Anytime I hear a woman say, “Ugh, I hate ads,” I’m like… how fragile are you? What is wrong? What’s going on? Why can’t you just scroll past it—or shut the damn thing down? Don’t walk into the grocery store, then.
I’m a business owner. I need to sell. I need to be profitable. And so does Facebook.
Why not? It’s capitalism. It’s a free world.
Some days, yeah, I’d love to be that business with ads everywhere. Other days? I wouldn’t want the hassle. Do you know how much goes on behind the scenes at that level? You don’t even want a business that big. You think you do—but you can’t handle it. If you can’t handle an ad coming through your feed without getting worked up, you cannot handle a business.
Lou:
Exactly.
Pamela:
It’s strong, but it’s the truth. If a picture in your feed has the power to mess with your emotions that much? Go get a job. You won’t be able to manage the rollercoaster of running a business. Because if you’re easily offended, you’re easily manipulated.
That’s the real reason people don’t want ads in their feed. They know they’re going to fall for something. They don’t trust themselves.
But when you do trust yourself—when you know who you are, what you need, where you’re going—those ads don’t bother you. The other day, I was looking for jewelry. Then we were shopping for non-toxic dishwasher soap. I was like, “Okay, show me the ads!” I want them. Show me options. Somebody’s got a pixel—thank God—so I can see more.
It’s a whole different energy.
I’m a business owner. I’m going to run ads because I believe what I have can change your life. If it’s for you, great. If not?
“Would you like coffee?”
“No, thank you.”
“Would you like coffee?”
“No, thank you.”
It’s that simple.
But this is what’s really going on. That discomfort? That’s a red flag. That’s something to look at.
Why ChatGPT gets your ads wrong
Lou:
Absolutely, I agree.
And I want to come back to something you said—about going to people, seeing people in person, having real conversations. One thing I’ve noticed is that business owners often try to sell what they think the person wants—not what the person actually wants. And the only way to figure that out is by talking to them. Which is why you can’t just start with ads when your business is fresh.
Pamela:
And you can’t go to ChatGPT either!
You have to go to your actual clients. When I started the coaching arm of my business back in December, I did 20 interviews. That gave me 726 pages of transcripts. I put that into ChatGPT and said, “Here’s what’s going on.”
Then we got somewhere.
From there, I ran Facebook ads with problem statements—40 of them. I spent $100 a day. I wanted a cost per click under $2 and a clickthrough rate of 2%. I also wanted at least 500 impressions. Then I’d shut it off.
That’s how I figured out which problem statements landed. I got that data so fast. I never could’ve moved that quickly without those interviews.
Then I tested lead magnet ideas. Lead magnet titles. I did the same thing. All in all, it cost me about $400—and I learned the core issue: they don’t know how to scale.
Now, I’m running it all again as I prep for a webinar. I’m refining it further, because we can get fancy in our heads. So it’s so important to have outside counsel—someone who can help you drill it down.
ChatGPT can only take you so far. You need interviews. You need someone who’s actually good at marketing. I like to think I’m a marketer, but today I still went to my coach and said, “What about this? What about that?” I told her, “I know this sounds fluffy… tell me what it really is.”
She said one sentence that nailed it: “Your clients hate their clients.”
Why? Because they’re undercharging, overdelivering, buried in scope creep, and ready to burn their business to the ground.
That was it. That was the real issue. I’d been dancing around it.
And you know what? I’ve been there. I hated my clients. I burned my business to the ground because I didn’t know what else to do. I probably lost $100,000.
That’s why it’s so important to understand your clients. We get up in our heads about it. We think we know—but we’ve either already moved past it and forgotten how it really felt, or we never understood it to begin with.
And that’s okay.
Just go talk to your clients.
Go and talk to clients.
Go and talk to clients.
That’s the only advice anyone should be giving before they launch a program, a course, anything.
You can’t sell if you haven’t talked to them.
Lou:
Amen.
Pamela:
Amen, right?
Lou:
Absolutely. Oh, that is so beautiful.
Pamela:
A truth. We’re having a truth session. We really are.
Lou:
Okay—so why is it important we talk about this?
Pamela:
Because my motto is: Great things happen when women have money.
And the fastest, most magnificent way for that to happen is for a woman to start a business. But it’s going to cost her—time, energy, and money.
And if she follows “Bob” on the internet, and Bob tells her this is the way to do it, and it’s a $15,000 program—and she has no idea what problem she solves or who she solves it for—she’s going to spend that money. And that could be her one kick at the can.
Right. Does everyone have 15 grand lying around? I don’t think so.
No, but we’ll find it.
I’ve spent $150,000—actually, I think it’s closer to $250,000 at this point—on things I thought for sure were going to work. But I hadn’t talked to my client.
Now, there were other problems too, like not following through or giving up when I got just a little bit of data and decided, “Oh, it’s not working.” That’s a different thing. You’ve got to get in the game to even understand what the next stage of the game looks like.
But the truth is: I spent that money on programs and courses without ever speaking to the people I wanted to help. No wonder it didn’t sell.
And today? You cannot sell unless you speak directly to your client, using their exact language, and framing it in a way they’ve never heard before.
It’s like: Atkins became keto became bulletproof coffee—it’s the same diet, just marketed differently. We have to say the same thing in a fresh way now. And that’s the hard part. That’s the thinking work. It’ll split your brain open, sitting there trying to go, “What’s the offer?”
And I’m in it right now. It’s a lot of thinking. And it’s because I’m trying to force it. I need to get up from my desk. I need space.
So I started painting. I’ve never painted in my life—but I needed the space. There’s not enough distance from the computer otherwise.
Times are changing, and so should we
Lou:
Yeah. Yeah, so true. I really appreciate this conversation—it’s so meaningful and important.
I think we do need to do some reprogramming in ourselves. Times are changing. Ads are changing.
Before we started recording, you said people used to treat ads like an ATM in their basement—a money printer.
Even Google Ads used to feel like that. But times are different now. We need to adjust.
Pamela:
They really are. But people are still selling that same dream—and they built their business in that older era.
That’s why they don’t realize how hard it is right now. And yet they’re still out there, bamboozling people.
I want to talk to people who are doing it right now. What did you see yesterday? What are you learning this month? It’s a very different time—post-COVID, with AI… everything is just noisier.
If you really want to help someone, find a group of people that you love. People you’d sit down with on a Friday afternoon for coffee or wine. Because you’re going to be talking to them—a lot.
Then, figure out what problems they have. There are lots. But what’s the one you can solve?
For me, it’s always been helping them find and manage clients. That’s what I’m really good at.
But this time, I’m calling it “Revenue Reclaimed.”
We’re going to reclaim the revenue you keep giving away—in your offer, your scope creep, your lack of recurring income or referrals.
You’re just giving it away. I hate that for you. It’s time to get that money back.
So I’m working in that right now. It’s very different from saying, “Make $10,000 in three weeks.” I could say that, and we’d be doing the same actual work—but this time, we’re starting with reclaiming.
Reclaim you, reclaim your time, reclaim your offer, your revenue, your mind, your life.
That’s where I’m at right now. Could change tomorrow—I’m still in it. But it’s taken me a month just to get to this clarity.
And here’s the truth: if your offer isn’t dialed in, it won’t sell. No matter what anyone tells you, it won’t.
If you’re scrolling through your feed and an ad irritates you, it’s because it’s not speaking to you.
But if I saw something that said, “Do your clients suck?”—I’d stop. I’d be like, “Who the hell is this? Because yeah, actually, Bob’s driving me nuts right now.”
That’s what an ad is supposed to do.
Wrapping up
Lou:
Right?
Amazing. This has been so good, Pamela.
Before we wrap, could you let folks know where they can find you—if they want to keep this conversation going or experience a little of that magic?
Pamela:
You can always find what I’m up to at theclientcoach.com.
I’m around the internet in a few places, but that’s probably the best place to start. From there, you can see everything I’m working on.
Lou:
Wonderful. Thank you so much. It’s been a pleasure having you here.
Pamela:
Thank you for the opportunity. What a great conversation—I got a bit worked up there, but it’s just so exciting. Thank you for the space to do that.
0 Comments